about a month ago i had a conversation with one of my galleries about the price of my mugs. i’ve been selling them locally for $35 CDN pretty much regardless of size since the time put into each piece is roughly the same. i throw these cups on the wheel. handles are added. each has a unique one of a kind, not printed, but hand drawn illustration on it. they have numerous colors added and fired to cone 6 in electric.
for the holiday season this gallery is requesting 24 mugs. it’s alot for me. i can’t produce full time with all the other aspects of managing my career and of course raising my kids. i have 2 holiday sales coming up wherein i know mugs will be the best sellers, so it becomes difficult for me to justify shipping (and paying for that shipping) the work cross country only to receive %50 of the selling price.
if i was working full time these cups would take a proper weeks worth of hours. they are that labour intensive. so lets do the math shall we…. 24 mugs x $35 = 840. Divide that by %50 you’ve got $420. Shipping will cost me approx $60 for that (2 boxes properly packed so as to not lose any pieces). $420-$60 = $360. Packing materials = $12. Material expenses: clay – $25, glaze – $8, underglaze – $4, firings – $40 (approx on these material expenses, i haven’t weighed or calculated the extact glaze quantity, etc. but i base these on figures i established a few years back for a grant). Total material expenses: $77. Studio fees: well i use my basement and my garage so i won’t factor that in right now, but there are heating and electrical costs associated and i can only imaging if i was paying rent on a studio out of the home) so where are we at? $360 – $12 – $77 = $271. $271 divided by the 24 mugs = $11 a mug. or lets look at my time: one week of work, lets say 6 hours a day so 30 hours: $9/hour is what i’m paying myself.
oh and there is nothing left over for actual profit margin.
right.
minimum wage in Saskatchewan where i live: $10.20.
how much did those two degrees cost me again?
I’m venting i know. but i was offended when the gallery staff was reluctant to let me raise my prices.
how do i feel about $35? i feel a few things. i feel that the local community/audience has a limit of how much they’ll pay. i live in Saskatchewan. we are known for lower priced work. a local established potter during my undergrad years sold his mugs for less then $25 (at the time) and once told me i was disrespectful and presumptuous to ask for more then those that have been practicing for longer then i have been. i have since truly upped my middle finger to such talk.
there is a system that i understand i must work within. there are different levels of skill and techniques that are more labour intensive that can charge more. but i won’t pander to the idea that my years of experience can only charge certain prices. i like to think that i address the market demands and what they are willing to pay.
but then what happens when you sell at a %50 commission rate at galleries? and what happens when you sell outside of your local market, perhaps even internationally where price points differ?
so do i sell for $35 locally by myself, take a %50 cut with galleries (plus have to pay shipping costs), and then sometimes come in much lower then other artists in an exhibition in a different market – being the jerk that undercuts all their hard earned prices? in an more international market place how do we price our work to address all these scenarios? we aren’t selling and exhibiting locally anymore so how do we level the playing field or develop a system that works where in artists feel respected and well paid?
and if we are pushing our audiences to pay a proper price for our work, should our galleries not also be a part of that system of educating the audience to a fair and sustainable value for our work? i wonder how they answer the question of how can artists charge so much when mugs sell for $5 at walmart. cuz i personally am beyond tired of justifying that.
anyway, enough of a rant from me. the above image shows a lot of the answers I’ve received from artists. this of course doesn’t illustrate anything about scale, technique, market and the like, but it’s a interesting starting point for looking at the price of a mug.
Oh man! This is frustrating and infuriating! Although I could talk for hours about this, I will keep it kinda brief. DO NOT UNDERSELL YOURSELF! Do not cut the price of your mugs. You might not be able to sell mugs at that gallery if they cannot support your necessary prices. How do they do at selling your work, generally? Is it a good relationship otherwise?
I have a couple of types of pieces that I only sell directly (via Etsy, studio sale, etc…) because I feel like the market would not support the retail price that would need to be set for these particular items. But I love making them and they are great sellers. So they become "studio exclusives."
I have 1 coffee shop that I make mugs for and for them it isn't about making money, it is more about offering a handmade alternative and supporting artists. I have a minimum wholesale cost and then they set the retail price for them. It ends up that they are only making $6 off of them. But I am making my full wholesale amount. We both feel comfortable with our arrangement.
Just a couple of thoughts. Sorry that you're feeling so discouraged. I would be too.
I am stunned that your mugs are only $35. I just raised my prices, too.
This is such an important topic, thank you for sharing your point of view. I am always struggling with pricing my work.
As a high school ceramics teacher, I see my class as a vital place to educate students (and hopefully their parents) regarding the value of a handmade ceramic piece vs something mass produced. Most of my students are not art or ceramic majors but they will always be consumers. Hopefully they can become better educated consumers who value handmade objects and understand the higher cost.
thank you Carole! I also have these feelings about cups, especially in porcelain they are incredibly labor-intensive and the rate of seconds is wquite high due to superficial joining cracks. I think my cups are really expensive but , that is how much a hand-crafted porcelain cup costs. Especially for mothers these items are not mass-produced, they are rare and special, hand drawings take a lot of time and experience to make . People who appreciate these cups know this and galleries should too. I think you are fully justified in venting!
I struggle with pricing, and I'm not even in a gallery, yet!
And I agree, it's so frustrating, feeling as though you have to justify prices to people who look puzzled at the idea that you should make minimum wage, let alone a profit.
Hang in there. You will find a place where maybe you don't have to give away 50% to a gallery!
I personally believe, after reading many posts about 'business', that it is ONLY about 'perceived' value. Do they want to pay or don't they. That is all. It is the responsibility of the maker to set that price as high as possible. I feel the same as you: up yours to anyone telling me "I shouldn't charge more" because they don't. It has nothing to do with them.
One thing I was shocked to read is that you have to pay for shipping cost to the galleries?!?!? Who the bloody hell do they think they are? If you are paying for the shipping then this has to be factored in the price as well.
Now I do understand 100% how difficult it is to raise prices. It is very touchy. Rather, it seems it only works when a 'new' design is introduced, and you now charge more for it. Since it isn't the same product, then debates over 'value' for same product is less likely.
Thank you so much for showing the numbers like this! It is really an eye opener.
I wish you the absolute best and success in increasing your margins so that you can be paid a proper number in the future!
Cheers!
Stephanie
I understand your perdicament. There is a small aspect that you have not considered, one that cannot be measured. There will be a certain number of people that can't afford your other pieces. They will buy your mugs now but maybe in the future buy a piece in your other series.
I know this is a small cancellation and doesn't pay your bills.
Lastly, when we analyse our lives in a dollars and cents kind of way, we always lose. I'm probably the worst person to comment because I follow you on Instagram and admire your work but I don't buy. Sorry, you would think I would. I have a BFA with a major in ceramics. I should buy…. maybe I will.
There is also the trip to purchase the clay, choose underglazes, mix the glaze. All the tests that tell you "that didn't work". Bookkeeping, record keeping, spending time at the post office waiting in line and then at least 5 minutes to have the parcel measured, weighed, as well as fill out forms. Add travel time and costs.
At art college n accountant was brought in to sharpen our business nous.His first question whilst holding up a cup was"How much is this worth?"The correct answer was "however much someone is willing to pay for it."Regardless of graph's ,hourly wages etc there are a whole lot of other factors at play. A Gwynn Hanssen Pigott cup VS a recent college graduate,firing type,loss rate,current price comparisons.Swings and roundabouts"
Don't pay for shipping. That is the responsibility of the gallery. I have been wholesaling for 25+ years and even if I drive my pottery to the gallery I charge for shipping. Consignment is a different issue, so I build in my shipping/delivery costs into the cost the piece sells at the gallery.
Deb – we have decided not to participate in this show for the very reasons you listed , and our mugs sell for $55 each, and I am considering raising that price again for the reasons you listed. We can't keep in mugs, Christmas is coming – so why would we take 24 mugs that we could – can and will sell at $55, ship them at our own expnse to a gallery where they will be crammed in (I'm sorry, true), so we can receive half. Not a solo show – not a great honor, basically doing that gallery a favour by giving them a great way to make money this holiday season. oh boy. thanks for bringing up this topic. I know some potters who quit making mugs for these reasons.
It is definitely some hard math to process. I definitely feel the need for brick and mortar stores but the economic climate, being what it is, makes it very hard to hand over 50% readily. Again, I am not challenging the difficult math that fabulous boutique stores and galleries are also forced to reckon with but other than a couple of choice spots, I am forced to sell in other ways. Mugs are ALOT of work to make and most of my pieces get fired 4 times with a lot of detail decoration in between. Sometimes I think that maybe I shouldn't make them at all, but alas, the want for them seems great so I acquiesce.
Carole!!! You are my hero for writing about this so honestly. I have recently started to decline most requests from shops that ask me to ship work to them and sell on a consignment basis. It makes no sense. Especially when mugs are the top request, and like yours, mine take me too much labour to justify making so little on them. It's a tricky topic, but numbers don't lie. I feel like the only way I would do this is if the gallery really added to my CV or got my work to a new area of the country (sounds like this is the case for you, needing to reach outside of SASK). I also just bumped the price of my mugs up from $35 (where they were for 6 years) to $40. Buyers have been pretty understanding & not one shop has questioned my decision. Thanks for sparking discussion on this!
Thank you Carol, I too have the same issues with mugs. I like having my work out there but feel resentful when I'm only covering my costs. I feel a rant coming on as well so will stop here and thank you for addressing this topic.
you absolutely have final say every time with regards to your prices.
i do not consign my work for various reasons, paying for shipping is one of them. (the hassle of managing stock, as well as hoping you'll be paid for the work you've made and put out in the world is another.)
this is harsh, but consignment establishments should take what you give them. if they are unhappy with that, then they are welcome to send you a purchase order for how ever many they want — and pay you the wholesale (50%) rate that you've set, as well as the shipping.
the sole consignment contract i have is local and they are the first place i ever sold my work. unfortunately, they are also last on my list of priorities when i am making work for orders or myself for shows. goes with the territory.
As a gallery owner I see both sides but would never ask someone to drop a price – I normally ask someone to raise them when I feel that someone's under-priced work undercuts other sales in the gallery – ie…work selling because it is "cheaper" than other work – Some customers come in with a budget in mind and buy a piece that suits it instead of being motivated by color, form, surface, etc…If things are more equally priced it forces a better sale interaction and more appreciation of the work purchased.
As an artist, I of course stand behind paying yourself first and foremost!
Keep in mind that successful holiday sales at a gallery are those lower priced items (mugs and bowls being the most popular gifts). Also for artists who are selling online, studio sales, or in other festivals or indie craft shows – customers are shopping all of your venues so the price has to be consistent regardless of venue. Don't set a price that is reasonable for your studio sale that is unreasonable when a gallery takes their cut.
We take 40% and our 40 covers gallery staff, gift bags and boxes, tissue wrap, lights, receptions, and our time uploading and maintaining our web site, photography, etc…When work is priced too low – it is too large an investment on our part to heavily photograph and promote the work when the work isn't prices sufficiently so I don't really get why you would ask an artist to cut prices. A slightly higher price is mutually beneficial to both parties.
Globalized economy=more competition, lower prices for utility products. But your work is more than just a mug it's your point of view. Charge what you need to charge, tell the gallery to lower it's take.
Travel in Japan is expensive. I only made one trip to visit my family in the Kansai after I graduated from my apprenticeship. I also visited Shiho Kanzazki in Shigaraki while I was there. His only advice was: "Don't sell wholesale. Sell in one man shows. Rent a gallery if you have to (common in Japan.) That way, you pay for advertising and rent, but you don't share any profit." In Japan, many young potters are treated like share croppers. I knew young people selling cup and saucer sets to shops for $4.00 There were too many young potters willing to sell their work for almost nothing.
Also, usually, the gallery's cut is 40%. When folks sold direct, they offered a 20% discount.
You can't be a share cropper for a shop or gallery. Charge them what you need to, or don't sell there.
I hear you! Hence my decision to leave being a production potter behind in 2005 and go to graduate school in hopes of a better wage as a teacher… still waiting on that one, but at least the hourly rate is $20 – $30.
One thing that I found worked for me was to keep some items for my local and craft show sales that I just simply didn't wholesale at all. That let me have some lower-priced items that I could still afford to make. I don't think I ever truly came out ahead when it came to wholesale or consignment, to be honest!
Oh yes – and I used to sell at the Halifax Farmer's market and all those seconds were what paid my rent every month – I'd kill for another venue like that:)
Hi, Great discussion! As a studio potter, I have over the years tried many different options, but what I have come to is that I try to balance the amount I send out wholesale with the amount I sell myself. I expect to make little on mugs, but make it up on bowls. For me, bowls take much less time and effort than mugs, but people will pay more for a larger item. They relate to the size of something, and then to the amount of work in it. So make and sell more bowls (platters, tiles etc.) and don't wholesale too many mugs.
And yes, in wholesale, the buyer pays the shipping. Many of them have courier company accounts, too.
I sell my everyday mugs for $25-30 and my big limited edition beer steins for $90-100. I have now been making and selling pottery for almost 30 years and I always hear the same things.
– "You don't charge enough"
– "You charge too much"
– "I can get that cheaper at walmart/k-mart/zellers/etc."
In the last few years I have stopped consigning work outside of my home city, its just too risky, I have been ripped off more times than I can count and been a victim of someone else's bad accounting too. I will still consign big pieces locally now but will be halting local consignment of my tableware next year and just going to straight wholesale for them. Easier to account for it all. I'm also raising my prices which I have only done once since I started creating, In the end I will still hear those same three comments from people. To which I always reply,
– "Give me more money then"
– "I charge this because it takes this long, requires this material, these techniques, this training and this unique talent, all of which I have and you do not. Now you owe me $5 for explaining that to you, you are welcome"
– "Then go find my mugs at walmart/k-mart/zellers/etc. for that lower price, wait, they aren't there, too bad"
I'll keep making things. 😀
When I do the math, it makes me cringe…I only consign work in one gallery in Colorado where I live and they have been really good to work with – otherwise, I sell at a biannual pottery show and online myself. The one consignment gallery and I have slowly been raising my prices, specifically on mugs since they sell really well. I've turned down other consignment opportunities, but I am courting wholesale accounts. Cash up front seems more justified than wait and see if it sells + having inventory holed up somewhere.
I've also been shying away from art markets – the booth fees are becoming outrageous for hit or miss sales/attendees. For ex, the Denver Botanic Gardens holiday market starts at $400 for a 6' x 4' space this year. It's crazy! A tangent, I know, but the $ outlay is sort of like consignment when I do the math.
I am currently charging $25 for a mug and the same for a simple porcelain pendant on a neck wire. The mug is way more labor intensive than the pendant, yet the pendants outsell the mugs 5:1
It does balance out making a range of items that vary in labor intensity. Sigh…
Call the gallery back. See if they will raise your cups to $48. Or see if they will accept half the order they want.
Exposure in the gallery has value, you can add that in to your equation. I might buy a cup today, and a large bowl the next time. I personally prefer gallery shopping to craft fairs. But if you have to save work for the fairs, you only have so much time in the days ahead so you have to calculate for that.
If you were truly in the MinWage category, your questions would be diapers or toilet paper? Or hot dogs or Doritos? Some of my best relatives are food service workers, and that is what I see. They are not homeowners or car owners. Nor fair goers be. Their wages are sucked into cell phones and diapers and not much else.
Choices. Education. Values. Value. Service. Makers. Be. Gratitude. Health. Patrons. Partners. Greed. And Me.
I've been a potter for 20 years, and this year I made the decision to get out of consignment galleries and do wholesale only and a few niche retail shows. I took a class in wholesaling with the Arts Business Institute, which included how to price your items for wholesale. That is the key, come up with your wholesale price first – including all the things you listed, as well as a profit. Then determine YOUR retail from that – keystone (times 2) is no longer the norm. Most galleries have moved to 2.3, 2.5, and even 3 times wholesale. The key is then to always sell your retail work at least at 2.2, so you are not undercutting galleries who buy your work wholesale. As someone said, customers are shopping all venues they can find you so your retail price needs to be consistent. As long as you are getting your wholesale price, it doesn't matter if the gallery is charging 3 or 4 times your wholesale price – YOU are still making a profit because you set your wholesale price to make a profit. I now have 10 wholesale accounts and will never go back to consignment where I take all the risk and the shop owner has none. If they go out of business or file bankruptcy your work becomes part of their assets – the court doesn't care whether they paid for it or not. OK now I'm getting off track, but just so you know, I wholesale my mugs at $23 as they are underglazed and heavily carved, with color inside. It is my lowest profit margin item, but I love making them and people love them so…Good luck to you!
I hear you, I figured out that most days I work for 4 bucks an hour. As my husband , (who actually pays the bills thank God0 says you chose this Kathy. work with it. I hear you though slogging mugs at $12 wholesale is getting me down.
I'm sorry, but I cannot understand why YOU are stuck paying the shipping… I have been in this business for quite some time and I never pay for the shipping costs…that should definitely be paid by the person who has placed the order…if they are uncomfortable with raising the price, then if they compromised and paid the shipping… in essence, you would still be getting more for each mug. If they want a more time intensive mug, then an extra charge would be determined for each one.
GAllery should pay the shipping. Any business that has mechandise ssent to them, pays the shipping cost.
Great discussion – Mugs are always loss leaders. More work than they can be worth. Other items are cash cows- less work more money. I too am a one woman studio potter. when I get a request for a "small" wholesale order of mugs – I generally pass. I can sell 24 of my $30 mugs to a reseller $375 Gross- or be patient and sell the same 24 for $30 for $750 Gross. It's what works for you. There is also the opportunity cost of making all those mugs for 50% their value when you could have been making more profitable work. back to the old make what sells vs. sell what I make. More coffee.
Good grief……$35 for a handmade piece of ART is a steal!!! It always amazes me how low prices are for clay art as compared to, say, a painting. And as far as undercutting other artists in a show – they are in control of what they price their stuff at, and their prices should not have anything to do with other people’s pricing structure. Don't undersell your stuff….it's ART, and should be worth something, and should be treasured by the purchaser as such.
Hi ya, just come across your blog and I'm inspired…well done! I have had a sarcastic, wry laugh about the price of a handmade, hand crafted mug/cup. I too (as all good ceramic studios must) have done exactly your ceramimathical equations…only I have to translate mine into New Zealand dollars…about half the price! But I have always realized that I don't typically sell my cups to somebody who figures that they can buy an entire dinner set from an imported brand for the same price as I am asking for a single cup, $35. In fact I love that I sell cups to people who see it as a treasure, not land fill and who figure that if they spend $5 on a one off, once enjoyed cup of great coffee why not $35 on a special handmade, hand crafted locally made ceramic cup that makes them feel happy and connected with the amazing and skilled community that they live in…every day?! Galleries are funny and clever places…the people who run them know their market…I've discovered through experience that you should just let them know what you would like to receive for each piece sold and let them figure out what margins they want on top of that…if they decide that they can't reach that sales target don't worry because I always find that selling these items from the studio for the right price is so enjoyable when I see my buyers new found pot happiness! x